Wednesday, October 10, 2012

So were we created or did we evolved?

Few months back, I posted a status update on my Facebook profile. I never imagined it will unleash such a huge debate. I posted this on my blog because I didn't wanted to lose the treasure of knowledge somewhere at the bottom of my Facebook wall that was discussed among ourselves. 

So this is how it started...

"So after the collapse of Darwin theory of evolution, scientists have agreed that we are the work of some 'Intelligent Design'. But still by the movie Prometheus they are trying to prove that those ugly creatures in some corner of the universe created the beautiful species like us.

It seems, soon a major drama is going to unfold in-front of our eyes. :P
Read about this Guy "Claude Vorilhon" who brought a new religion called "U F O Religion".

I totally agree with this guy, soon there will appear a person called 'Elohim' with lots of plastic surgery all over his body in some super-duper spacecraft preaching people that he's our creator or maybe to destroy us because we distorted the previous scriptures sent by him. ROFL"

Jayesh Bhoot:
Collapse of Darwin's theory of evolution?


Yaps Jayesh the collapse!!.

His followers were not able to carry the burden and 'EVOLVE' his theory any more..

For Example:

All the species in the theory of evolution should have transitional forms i.e. from beginning of existence till today but they never found all the transitional forms which negates the theory.

Additionally, his theory only talks about the external observation of species and their evolution externally affected by environment and other species, but it doesn't talk about the evolution of internal functioning of these species and why they work the way they are supposed to work.

His theory doesn't talk about, from where did these cells got intelligence to form a species like us.

For Example, it doesn't talk about how the Hemoglobin in the blood
was produced from the chemical combination of 20 amino acids available in nature.
If you have studied biology you know it is a chain of proteins formed by amino acids.(if not you can do it now that's what I did :P)

Did it happened randomly all by chance and that to with a correct combination?

Just take the example of our simple eye, how did our eye evolved?

Forget evolution talk about the intelligence it has. The real-time performance of our eye remains unchallenged even by today's super computer. The supercomputer can take several minutes to simulate 10 millisecond operation performed by each nerve cell in the eye and there are more than 10 million nerve cell performing such operation simultaneously which can take the super computer 100s of years.

(This are all facts proved by scientist, not my random 'EVOLUTIONARY' words. :P)

Now, if a supercomputer is obviously the product of intelligent design, how much more obviously is the eye a product of intelligent design? And How much more obviously we are the product of an intelligent design?

Why didn't Darwin didn't understood this simple thing? Just because of his stupid theory he made so many people go astray from the correct path.

Evolution did not happen in a day, a year, or even a milenia. It took millions of years.
i'll counter some of the points which u stated..

"His theory doesn't talk about, from where did these cells got intelligence to form a species like us." -
his theory talks about it. in fact thats what his theory is about. the formation of cells in deep seas, from there formation of small creatures with a group of cells, and from there it grew, slowly came out of water to the land and evolution continued. evolution doesnt mean that always the right permutation and combination is formed. all types of cell combinations happened. those who were strong survived, others died away, so the right combination was carried forward.

same argument for the hemoglobin thing
its a long process of what survives the cell mutations which forms the crux of evolution.

the eye... the eye too evolved from creatures with time. with time the creatures needed to know about their environment, thus slowly all the senses developed. we r at the top of the evolutionary tree, so our eyes should be the most advanced.

"Now, if a supercomputer is obviously the product of intelligent design, how much more obviously is the eye a product of intelligent design? And How much more obviously we are the product of an intelligent design?" ------

a supercomputer was made in 50 years lets say. we were made after millions and millions of years of evolution.. after the survival of the right combination of cells forming a creature...

Umar, there is a point to this debate, everyone who argues that Evolution is real! They have a lead point as themselves who haven't yet evolved from Monkeys.

The whole argument is invalid!!!

Ok then..Here we go.

First of all, Intelligent Design is largely considered a pseudo-science by the majority of scientific community, which tries to bypass giving a legitimate explanation of evolution by stating that the living beings are a purposeful creation of some supreme being. That theory leans more towards religion rather than science; it just tries to wear a wrapper of being a scientific theory.

Next, though Darwin himself believed that there were some laws pre-defined by something supreme, his theories still were able to explain evolution of living organisms, independent of any such intelligent intervention.

Regarding the transitional stages, we have transitional fossils as living proofs for the transitions from the original form to the derived form of an organism. Obviously, we won't get ALL the transitional fossils - Earth is not exactly the best storage medium.

Millions and billions species have failed in the evolution process. Why? Natural selection, Survival of the fittest/smartest. Had it been some Intelligent Design, I think everything would have been perfect from start, no?

No single cell is intelligent; it is the multi-cellular form of an organism that enables it to function intelligently. And that has been derived after a millions of years of an evolutionary process. Even then, ONLY A SINGLE SPECIES - human beings, who, sadly, would certainly destroy Earth - out of billions of species has been able to achieve true intelligence. It is because of this evolution that we are currently ruling Earth. Even our ancestors had a lot of variations - Homo Sapiens, Homo Neanderthals, Ramapithecus (yeah, an Indian genus of Homo family), etc. Only Homo Sapiens stand today. Other than that, there are apes, whom we have long left behind in the race.

The first step towards our intelligence was that we had to leave the trees, and move on to the open grounds. Thus, the race of survival against the harsh nature started. Our ancestors, being less physically powerful, were forced to find ways of survival ranging from fire to using tools. With this began the thinking process, which hasn't stopped even today.

And yeah. The correct amino acids were formed; but after millions of years, during which billions of billions of combinations would have taken place. The point is that Earth had a lot of time to begin and shape the evolution. So, such combinations may seem divine, but they occurred after innumerable failed experiments, in millions of years. Such a large timescale makes these combinations probable and feasible.

You talk about the eye. There is an explanation (obviously, largely accepted in scientific community) that the eye is also a result of a really long evolution process that started from a single pigment attached to an optic nerve. This design was passed down through innumerable generation and species, gradually adding functionality in the form of cells and more optic nerves. Moreover, the basic mechanism of eye is common among all eye-possessing organism, implying that the eye evolved from a very old, common ancestor. This gave that organism a lot of time to evolve.

Darwin was a guy who never discarded the belief of a supreme being. But, at the same time, he gave a self-satisfying theory of evolution which didn't require a divine intervention; the recipe was a very long timescale, innumerable combinations of chemicals, constantly changing environment according to which organisms had to adapt and, hence, evolve.

Existence of a supreme being is more a thing of personal belief; that doesn't mean that evolution never happened. Theories like Intelligent Design always have the element of escapism - Just by providing (an unproved) existence of an intelligent being/design, they want to escape all the justifications of why and how we are here today.
Intelligent Design is more religious than scientific; an no matter how much people strive, religion and science can't be unified by such theories.
The Theory of Evolution has a lot of proofs and evidences to be backed upon. But theories like Intelligent Design has none of that, except insisting that something supreme must exist.

Lastly, here is an excellent (but slightly offensive :P) quote of a renowned scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson on Intelligent Design -

And a (again, may be a bit awkward) imaginary conversation on that subject -

I'm rolling on the floor laughing my ass off!

Everything you say is just a perpective, Albert Einstien was one of the biggest critics of 'Theory of Evolution'.

It's a joke, we do not know how the immensely complex organ systems of plants and animals could have been created by mindless and purposeless natural processes.

Darwinian theory attributes biological complexity to the accumulation of adaptive micro-mutations by natural selection, but the creative power of this hypothetical mechanism has never been demonstrated, and the fossil evidence is inconsistent with the claim that biological creation occurred in that way.

The philosophically important part of the Darwinian theory - its mechanism for creating complex things that did not exist before - is therefore not really empirical science at all, but rather a deduction from naturalistic philosophy.
In brief, what makes me a "disbeliever of this theory of evolution" is that I distinguish between naturalistic philosophy and empirical science, and oppose the former when it comes cloaked in the authority of the latter."

In a layman's words, "if monkey's evolved to be humans, why are there so many monkey left" maybe they forgot to get out of the trees to evolve. 

"Science without Religion is Lame and Religion without science is blind".
- Albert Einstien

"The theory of Evolution by natural selection" has more critics then proofs, more revolutionary biologists against it then for it.
That's why it is still called as a "Theory" not a scientific fact. 

When Charles Darwin advanced his theory, which was to be named "The Theory of Evolution" later on, disciplines like genetics and microbiology did not yet exist. Darwin was unaware of the structure of the DNA, proteins, and the cell. The scientists of the time were putting forward ridiculous theses about living things due to the insufficient level of science. For example, they supposed that worms appearing on meat were showing up all of a sudden without any origin. It was to be later discovered that these worms came out of the eggs laid by flies. Life was not so simple as to come about all of a sudden.
"This was the prevailing understanding of science at the time Darwin wrote his book The Origin of Species.

Darwin theory says, Giraffes were antelope like animals whose necks were extended over time as a result of their attempt to reach higher tree branches.
But later, Mendel’s studies made it clear that acquired traits cannot be transferred to next generations. Living things could transfer only their genes, not their elongated necks to subsequent generations... Thus Darwin's basic assertions were demolished by the end of the 19th century.

The transformation of living species into each other is as implausible as the coincidental formation of life on earth. There is no power in nature capable of transforming a worm into a fish, then turning it into a reptile which has climbed on land, and then into a flying bird, and finally into a human. Darwin, who claimed just the opposite, put forward only a single concept as the "evolutionary mechanism": Natural selection. Natural selection centers around the idea that the strongest living beings that are best fit to their habitat will survive. For instance, in a deer herd threatened by wild animals, those that can run faster will survive. Certainly, this mechanism would not cause deer to evolve:–it would not transform them into another living species, for instance, elephants.
There is not a single shred of observational evidence showing that natural selection has ever caused any living thing to evolve. A noted evolutionist, British paleontologist Colin Patterson confesses this fact: "No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection. No one has ever got near it and most of the current argument in neo-Darwinism is about this question."

You talking about the eye, 'the organism' that evolved eye. I say what was the eye before it evolved. How did the organism of the eye knew that the species that is being created will require an a thing called 'eye' to see the world, a stomach to digest food, kidneys to purify the blood, heart to circulate, and so many things in the human body and in animals. All were created with a single type of cell how these cells separated themselves, how did they receive the intelligence to perform functions they are ought to perform and how were they able to build themselves 'FLAWLESSLY'.

Talking about Transitional forms, Living species emerge very distinctly in the fossil record. There is no trace of the "intermediate forms" that were expected to link these species in the 140 years that have passed since Darwin. The well-known evolutionist Ager admits this: "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, we find–over and over again–not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." The sudden origination of living beings on the earth is proof that they were created.

Evolutionists event point to mutations, that is, the alterations in the DNAs of living beings, as an "evolutionary mechanism". Science, however, renounces this claim, because mutations never cause living beings to develop, on the contrary, they cause them fatal damage.

Evolutionist even say, human appendix has no use. If it is so it contradicts their own theory of human brain evolution. Earlier medical science has not progressed to understand the use of appendix so these Darwinist got a chance that it evolved from apes and now it is useless, which contradicts that our brain can not learn and understand new knowledge.
Read this :

I don't reject the theory of evolution but it doesn't mean that you keep on changing from one species to another. 'Evolution' the word itself says things evolve but they don't get created and the Darwinist misunderstood the world evolution as creation.

What Darwinist try to prove is "The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."

Naman, just once catch...

you accepted supercomputers are an intelligent design created by intelligent beings like us, then how come we so sophisticated and complex creation are created by chance without any intelligent design.

When you are done rolling over floor laughing your ass off, I would love to know an exact and a reliable source for your claim of Einstein being one of the biggest critic of evolution theory.

You contradict yourself when you use the words "micro-mutations" and "demonstration" in consecutive sentences. Of course, you can't demonstrate something so slow and gradual as the evolutionary process. And I, along with all the sensible scientists, really wish that Earth had a better storage mechanism to store all the innumerable transitional fossils; but whatever fossils we have, they certainly don't want to kill the theory of evolution.

Half the science is based on deduction followed by proofs, which the Theory of Evolution certainly has more than something like Intelligent Design. It is the deduction and proof process that forms the basis of science, and not sentences studded with heavy words.

Though you meant it to be ironic, ironically, you answer your own question. There are monkeys left because, indeed, they failed to left the trees. They got the basic things required for basic survival - food and shelter - on the trees.

Half knowledge is worse than ignorance. If you want to quote an extremely respected and renowned scientist like Einstein, then you should also give the context around the quote. His religion was cosmic - a personal spiritual belief, or as you said, a perspective. Surely he can have his perspective; but he never encouraged the idea of the usual religion. Einstein, like several other famous people, have always faced the misfortune of having their statements misinterpreted accidentally or deliberately.

I would also be astonished to see a legitimate list of these "revolutionary biologists" who are against the theory of evolution.

I seriously hope that this link would shed some light on the poor Einstein's point of views - 
and this - 

Jayesh, this guy, 
ask him if he can design human in a better way, replace the so called 'useless' parts with useful ones and move the entertainment system to a better position. 

"When Charles Darwin advanced his theory, which was to be named "The Theory of Evolution" later on..."
That is exactly why I used the term "Theory of Evolution" - It's not just what Darwin wrote, but also includes all the enhancements introduced later on.

"For example, they supposed that worms appearing on meat were showing up all of a sudden without any origin."
This statement leans more towards Creationism, on which the Intelligent Design theory is based.

"This was the prevailing understanding of science at the time Darwin wrote his book The Origin of Species."
Who said that science was always perfect? But the wonderful thing about science is that it has always improved; it has always discarded wrong beliefs and accepted new but sensible beliefs. I would like to point out, though, that religion always had a problem with accepting new things. And Darwin was a revolutionary of his time. He had the thought process to drum his brains. Science's status and his theory have realy no connection; the whole argument is ridiculous.

"Life was not so simple as to come about all of a sudden."
This is what Theory of Evolution has been trying to say. Things just didn't come out from anywhere; they evolved after a painstaking process spanning millions of years. By the way, Intelligent Design strive to make things simple by assigning a supreme being, doesn't it?

"Darwin theory says, Giraffes were antelope like animals whose necks were extended over time as a result of their attempt to reach higher tree branches.But later, Mendel’s studies made it clear that acquired traits cannot be transferred to next generations."
It was Lamarck, and not Mendel, who proposed the theory of acquired characteristics. In fact, Mendel disproved Mendel's claim that acquired characteristics cannot be inherited. This link might help in understanding that -
Another twist - Today's evolutionary biology has combined both Mendel's and Darwin's approaches harmonically.

"The transformation of living species into each other is as implausible as the coincidental formation of life on earth. There is no power in nature capable of transforming a worm into a fish, then turning it into a reptile which has climbed on land, and then into a flying bird, and finally into a human."
You do believe that amino acids are the building blocks of living organism, right? Well, they are just chemicals, whose very specific combinations became the origin of genes, RNA, DNA, and gradually single cellular organisms. What caused them to combine? The young Earth was overpopulated with hot volcanoes exhaling chemicals, lightning strikes, high temperature, and storming oceans. These situations were enough to cause billions of chemical reactions across the oceans, one of which succeeded and resulted into a single cellular organism.
Then, again, somewhere these single-celled organisms combined to form a multicellular organism, which worked more efficiently than its predecessors. So, it survived and produced more of itself. Thus, the varities started emerging.
Evolution occurs when a group of organisms are thrown in a strange environment. The individuals who can adapt to the environment will survive and deemed fitter than others. Thus, the are naturally selected to produce the further generation. Whatever mutations helped them to adapt to the new environment will be passed down to the new generation, thus inducing permanent changes to the behavior and shapes of the organism.

For example, apes had no issues with life when they lived on trees. Unfortunately, some were overwhelmed and thrown into open areas. These apes had to adapt to the new environment in order to survive. For instance, they had to look far for food, prey or threats, due to which they graudally succeeded in becoming bipedal. Their ape-ish long feet were hindrance in walking; so they gradually became shorter. Body hair, which were useful in insect-infested jungles, were no longer necessary; so they were shed gradually. They no longer required to eat the raw fruit cores; so their jawlines decreased gradually, making them more humane.

"Darwin, who claimed just the opposite, put forward only a single concept as the "evolutionary mechanism": Natural selection. Natural selection centers around the idea that the strongest living beings that are best fit to their habitat will survive."
Again, I will stress that Theory of Evolution doesn't only include Darwin's Natural Selection. It also includes mutation and genetic drift - partially based on Mendel's findings. But, that doesn't mean that Natural Selection is garbage. It is the only known and proved cause of adaptation, and one of the causes of evolution.

An eye might have been an optic nerve as I said. The organims that might have held it would have registered a visual of its surroundings for the first time, which was obviously useful for navigation. This was a good thing for adaptation. Hence, it got passed on further, being worked on and enhanced by its own evolutionary process.
Organisms don't require intelligence to deduce this. If something helps them to survive, it is preserved and enhanced gradually. That's all.

"how did they receive the intelligence to perform functions they are ought to perform and how were they able to build themselves 'FLAWLESSLY'."
That's a tragic proof of evolution - It has just tried to improve organisms; not made them perfect. Appendix in human species is an example. Evolution hasn't yet been able to discard it as it's not life threatening to the whole species. Had it been some Intelligent Design, though, don't you think it would have not existed at all? Isn't that logical?

Regarding transitional fossils, I will explain no more, and would point you to Wikipedia's article itself - And I seriously hope that you don't say that you don't believe the article.

Science shown in movies might have claimed that mutations are always bad, not actual science. Some proof of that claim would be welcome.

Your statements have clearly rejected evolution Darwinism has never claimed evolution as creationism. You are basically bashing well known, widely tested, and then widely accepted theories unnecessarily.

"What Darwinist try to prove is "The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.""
First of all, again, Earth had a lot more time than the tornado, and lot more resourcest than the junkyard.
It is still better than the creationism's claim of producing living organisms out of nothing. The tornado at least had the material to form the Boeing.

Intelligent Design has a niche - the niche where science doesn't have an explanation. There, it can establish its stronghold on the basis of unproved, ridiculous claims. But, it certainly can't displace a veteran theory like Theory of Evolution.
Hehe, that's the point, MohammedUmar. Such a huge job is not a one man's job, like the Intelligent Being claimed by creationism. And it is because of evolution that these imperfections remain. 


You missed my point very badly bro,

I said in my previous post that "I don't reject the theory of evolution". I totally agree with it that, it took billion and billion of years to evolve the species and the universe, what I'm trying to tell you is "The Darwin Theory just negates the presence of an Intelligent Being"

You talking about religion, that they have a problem accepting new things.
Mann!! I don't know about other faiths but I'll show you some verses from Quran that tells you about evolution 1433 years back before Darwin even existed. I am sure Darwin must have read Quran and gave his theory but he failed to grasp the intelligent power that created this whole universe. And one thing I'll tell you about Quran, not a single word has been replaced or changed since last 1433 years, and that is the universal proof. So you don't have to doubt the authenticity that verses have been changed according to time.

In the Name of Allah.

Do they not see how Allah begins the Creation, then repeats it? That is easy for Allah (to do) (Al-'Ankaboot, 29: 19).
Say: "Travel through the Earth and see how He began the Creation. Then, Allah makes the latter Creation. Allah is capable of (doing) everything" (Al-'Ankaboot, 29: 20).

Here, Allah, praise to Him, has commanded us to travel through the Earth to study how He began His creation, in order to explain to us how He can repeat it again in the Hereafter. Thus, Anthropology, biology, geology, and all other sciences which investigate how the solar system started and how life began and has continued on our planet represent an implementation of this divine command.

The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition) This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’

41.11: Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke...(The Holy Quran, Chapter 41, verse 11)
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran.

51.47: We have built the heaven with power, and We are expanding (it) (The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 51, Verse 47).
In this verse, God Almighty praise to Him, is telling us that He created heaven and He is expanding it. Modern cosmology supported this fact of expanding universe in the twentieth century. Like in the case of every verse below, readers will discover that these facts were mentioned in the Holy Quran 1433 years ago, in order to confirm to us humans that the Holy Quran is God's message to humanity, and consequently to follow its teachings in order to live happily in this life and in the hereafter.

note:- heaven and paradise are not to be understood as same, heaven here signifies universe.

21.30 . Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one connected entity, then We separated them from each other, and We made every living thing out of water? Will they not then believe?
The first part of this verse talks about the so called 'Big Bang theory'
The second part of this verse talks about creation of life; Basically, life depends on the availability of water, which has become a scientific given.
For decades, space programs have had a major goal of investigating whether there is water on other planets or not, in order to begin the exploration of whether there is life on those planets or not. Several verses of the Holy Quran have stated clearly that every living being has been created from water.
Water covers about seventy percent of the surface of the Earth, which has provided it with the essential requirement of life.

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geo-sciences  Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad(peace be upon him) came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case. Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin. 

4.1 . O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them has spread a multitude of men and women.

This verse tells us that the beginning of life was a single soul, then its mate came out of it. Biological science tells us that the earliest form of life was represented by single cell organisms found in water, then these multiplied by splitting themselves. With the course of time, reproduction started to be by mating pairs, instead of the archaic forms of splitting or dividing.

The same meaning is expressed in other verses, such as 30.21, as follows:
30.21 . And of His signs: He has created for you from yourselves mates with whom you find rest , and He ordained between you love and mercy . In this, there are signs for people who ponder.

32.7. (Allah is He) who has made everything He created better, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay.

In this verse, we are told that Allah (Praise to Him) began the creation of human beings out of clay, but that was the beginning, then He improved His creation making it better.

The most relevant word in this verse is "began", which tells us clearly that creation happened in a process that had a beginning, not just at once. The same meaning is found in Verse 15, Chapter 50.

50.15. Were We then tired with the first creation? (No), they (nonbelievers) are in confusion about a new creation (resurrection).

This verse confirms the meaning included in 32.7, saying that there was a first creation, the creation of life, which then evolved according to a long process of learning how to adapt to the environment.

The scientific evidence available to us tells us that the beginning of life was in an environment similar to swamps, which are composed basically of water and and earth matter. This produced clay, where the first forms of life began in the form of single cell organisms. These organisms multiplied reproducing themselves first by splitting and division. However, later, they paired as males and females to reproduce as they took other life forms in the sea and on land.

Allah even explains about the stages of human creation in the Holy Quran,

23.12-14 We created the human being from a product of wet earth; (12)
Then, We placed it as a nutfah (fertilized egg) in a safe (deep) lodging; (13)
Then, We created the nutfah into an alaqa (leech).
Then, We created the alaqa into mudghah (a little lump, like a chewed substance).
Then, We created the mudghah into bones.
Then, We clothed the bones with flesh.
Then, We produced it (the human being) as another creation.
So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! (14).

note:- A nutfah is the Arabic word for a fertilized egg, a zygote, or the union of a father’s sperm and a mother’s egg. An alaqa is the Arabic word for a leech. In this case, it refers to a fertilized egg sticking to the womb sucking nutrients from it like a leech.

Now, only recently in human history, biological and medical researchers could reach such accurate knowledge about the major stages of the fetus development, as described in the verses above.

This description was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, 1433 years ago. There was no way for an illiterate man in Arabia to know about the human creation by himself and with this accuracy.

This is one of the Holy Quran miracles, giving evidence that the author of this book could be nobody else except God, the Creator, praise to Him.

Jayesh, Naman, this are just few verses from the Quran, it talks about everything, literally everything from creation to production to living a happy peaceful life,doing business transactions, marriages, relation with others..... and ultimately death and then after life.

I'll repeat again, I never said that I don't support the theory of evolution because Quran itself talks about it, but what I said is the Darwin's theory of evolution 'negates' the presence of the supreme power which I object.

What more you have to say now? 

Well. We have reached at a point where both of us have a completely opposite mentality, MohammedUmar.
Though I don't believe in any religion, I respect all of them. So, I have nothing to say now.

May The Most Intelligent Being, The Supreme Power, The Creator of the universe and mankind, The all Merciful guide all of us on the correct path.

And so at this stage I thought debate was over but my other friend Aqeel drops in.... 

The reason why the theory of evolution is not widely accepted is it directly contradicts many religions in the world. If these religions have taught us that 'gravity' is an intelligent design as well, I bet even today, we could hear people arguing 'How would things know to fall without some divine power ?' .

Aqeel, hope you read all my comments, especially the one's where I gave references from the Quran about the evolution of earth and the big bang theory.

I said before and I'll say it again that I am not against evolution and neither is the Quran from which I gave references about the big bang theory and the evolution of universe and the planet earth, and how human being is evolved from an ovum to a complete man, those were only few verses, if you want I can give you more verses from the Quran.

What I am trying to say is Darwin's theory is not 100% correct, because he is human and like every human he is not flawless. There are lots of flaws in his theory.
For example he talks only about evolution but not creation and this is what our debate is on. For everything to evolve there has to be a beginning and to begin, it has to be created. "Who created?".Answer this. And don't tell me it happened randomly, nothing happens flawlessly in random manner.

We are software engineers, so think logically. Just to do mathematical calculation we have to write few lines of code depending on the complexity of the problem. It doesn't happen itself randomly. Now imagine the new boeing 787 dreamliner which AirIndia has recently purchased , such a sophisticated programming is required to keep that giant machine floating in the sky, a small bug will bring it crashing down. Then how can you say that this whole universe, the most intelligent human being on the planet earth and so many exotic species on our planet in which you find no 'FLAWS' were created randomly out of no where. Why Darwinsts fail to understand this simple concept.

Now, you are talking about gravitational force, you're saying no religion taught this? mann!!! Most of us people don't read the scriptures and even if we read we read in the language we don't understand and during our whole life we don't even try to learn the language of the scriptures thinking it to be very traditional and unprofessional.
Stuff that our grandpa's and grandma's used to read to tell their grandchildren stories from them... hahahah..

Bro, you need to read the scriptures, understand them and then you will get all you answers to the questions. 'ALL YOUR ANSWERS'.

Coming to gravitational force, here is what Quran says about gravitational force. But first understand that gravitation is the term coined by Newton in 17th Century and I'll be giving you the reference from the text revealed by God, to Prophet Muhammed(peace be upon him) 1433 years back, so don't start playing with words.

In the Name of Allah.

[67:3] He, who has created the seven heavens one above another. You can see no fault in the creation of the Most Gracious. Then look again (and again indefinitely). Can you find any flaws? (Quran 67:3 )

This verse explains that the gravitational system concept can be extended to higher hierarchy i.e. all rotating - revolving star - planet systems, galaxies, their clusters and the entire universe. In the absence of 'centripetal force' the universe and its subsystems would start collapsing into itself. In the absence of gravitation, on the other hand, the universe would cease to be stable, the subsystems would break away in a bizarre manner and the universe would be shattered. Fortunately Man’s research and observation do not find any sign of this ripping away.

[31:10] He has created the heavens without any pillars that you see.... (Quran 31:10)

The two balanced forces, gravitational and centripetal, together therefore are acting as a single robust, pillar - like support. They cannot be detected by eyes, naturally.

Now, what would have been the condition if God were not to create this fundamental force of gravity? What would be the result if He would withdraw it? Listen to what Quran has to say:

[35:41] Verily, Allah grasps the heavens and the earth lest they should move away from their places. And if they were to move away from their places, there is not one who could grasp them after him.... (Quran 35:41)

Gravity of a heavenly body varies according to its mass. The value for earth’s gravity is determined as 9.8 meters per second square. Our tiny moon has a value of just 1.62 but the giant sun has 274. [Source wiki.]

A falling apple is credited with prompting Newton to discover gravity. Interestingly, Quran uses just the opposite phenomenon to imply gravity !

[55:33] If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, then (go ahead and) pass beyond (them) ! But you will never be able to pass them except with a (tremendous) force. (Quran 55:33).

Whether to send a satellite up the space, dispatch curiosity rover to explore Mars or to send man to moon - the rocket to carry them can lift off the surface of the earth only if it develops a force exceeding earth’s gravity. If only it reaches a vertical velocity of 11 km per second it could get rid of earth’s grasp and enter outer space. If not, it will fall down back. This velocity, termed escape velocity of a heavenly body, depends upon its gravity, Quran told it so many years back.

Holy Qur’an was revealed in an age when even air flight by man could hardly be given a thought, let alone attempted. How then it could give a hint to man about possibility of space travel is truly amazing. Could have this concept been authored by man? Absolutely no chance!

You see now, Quran is no more a simple religious text, it is a book of astronomy if you want to fly, geology if you are a geologist and want to explore earth, biology if you want are concerned with the study of life and living organisms and their anatomy, if you are a business man it has better knowledge than any other management book keeping in mind the over all humanity and not only your personal desires, if you are a politician it tells you how to establish your rule and rule the people 'with Justice' and the list is endless. Quran has all the answers to the questions of mankind of every age, 'EVERY AGE' whether it was 1433 years back or now or coming future.

But sadly the people and especially the believers of this book have failed miserably to understand it as book of life and forward the blessings of this book to humanity.

The concept of Darwin is crap, because first of all no human can be an expert in all the branches of knowledge that Quran talks about. And if still you believe one can be than I would like to say Prophet Muhammed(peace be upon him) was an illiterate he neither knew how to write nor to read. Then how Quran came into existence. How would you answer this?

Please I'm waiting eagerly for the best answer. And if you don't have any then it leaves you no choice but to believe that it is a word of the supreme most intelligent being, the architecture of this universe and all merciful 'The God'.

And still if you don't believe, Quran has the answer for that too... But I'll keep some patience and wait before giving that answer.

Let me answer your last questions first: You are talking about Quran, and God and all. I am not denying anything at this point of time. Believe what you want. Lets just assume all you are saying about them is correct. No issues. The reason I commented to your post is your first line:"Collapse of Evolution" . I only wanted to talk about evolution. Nothing else.

Now answers for your first questions: First of all, Darwin was the pioneer of the theory of evolution. It have grown into a full science now with a lot of advancements. So it would be great if u stop using 'Darwin's theory' or 'Darwinist' and all.
1. Evolution might still have some mistakes. No one says its 100% correct. Its a science after all. People only want to learn more and correct any mistakes if its there. But at the moment, it explains fairly good about how 'we' got here.
2. "For example he talks only about evolution but not creation and this is what our debate is on" - No. that is not what I am debating about.(In-fact I am not debating at all :)) And YES it only explains only of evolution. Its not the science which talks about origin of life. It only talks how it got changed over time. Don't ever ask this question.
3. "Who created?" - I don't know!
4."Then how can you say that this whole universe, the most intelligent human being on the planet earth and so many exotic species on our planet in which you find no 'FLAWS' were created randomly out of no where. Why Darwinist fail to understand this simple concept." :- this means you still don't understand evolution. You are talking about 'Flawless'. Who said its flawless. It is FLAWED!! In-fact it is a supporting evidence of evolution. Only Intelligent Design could make it flawless. Evolution happened with whatever it had.

Do yourself a favor. In the earlier post I have pasted a link to some course on Genetics and Evolution. Take that class, and watch the lecture videos in the first week. It will help you get rid of some misconceptions about evolution.
Another thing, I think you see evolution as some anti-religious thoughts. Don't do that. Take some time and understand evolution from a science perspective. And then see if it seem wrong in a scientific way: is there anything illogical about it. Forget your religion at this time. Treat it as science. I believe if you do that, you might not have so much questions as you have now. Trust me, that's what I did. 

Aqeel my bro, I told you not to play with words. Read and Read again what I began my post with, because in Quran the first verse that God revealed is to Read, here is what Quran says:

In the name of Allah.

[1]Read in the name of your Lord Who created(all that exist).
[2]Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood
[3]Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,
[4]Who taught (to write) with the pen
[5]Taught man that which he knew not.(Quran 96:1-5)

So please read carefully, my first line says "The Collapse of Darwin theory of Evolution" and not the "Collapse of Evolution".

Now, instead of asking more questions I'll inshaallah try to provide you with 'better' answers for the answers you gave me.

1. You are saying it explains 'fairly good' how we got here. This contradicts your own statement in you second answer where you are mentioning- "And YES it only explains only of evolution".

I say it explains 'how we got here' but his explanation is very weak or I say it is a fluke because it doesn't make sense that through some random chemical reaction happened with a huge disaster(Big Bang) life was created. It doesn't make sense in his theory of 'how we got here' but it makes some sense on how things evolved but that too with so many flaws in his theory. (Read this:

2. Now when your first answer contradicts the second, ofcourse your second has to contradict the first. I hope I don't have to mention what it contradicts because I don't want to make the stuff boring.

Ofcourse I'm going to ask again the same question. That is what we are discussing(a better word than debate). It is no use to keep on discussing evolution when I said I don't oppose evolution and showed you verses from the Quran(and still there are many more) on evolution which signifies even Islam doesn't disapprove evolution but in-fact gives you a better understanding on the concepts which science have not been able to claim it as false and inshaallah will never be in such position.
My discussion started with saying that, "scientists have agreed that we are the work of some 'Intelligent Design'" but then I started receiving reply about how religion cannot grasp the evolution, that is the reason I started clearing the misconceptions by giving verses from the Quran that my religion doesn't disapprove evolution.
So the whole discussion still is on "The Intelligent Being".

3. Ofcourse you won't know because Darwin didn't knew either. Why he didn't knew? Because he was human. But I know and I gave you the answer, because the Quran gave me the answer. And why the Quran is able to give me the answer? Because it is a word of God.

4. I gave you a verse in my above comment where God challenges humans to find the flaws in his creation.

[67:3] He, who has created the seven heavens one above another. You can see no fault in the creation of the Most Gracious. Then look again (and again indefinitely). Can you find any flaws? (Quran 67:3 )

It is an open challenge to whole humanity. If you say so, what flaws did you find?

Lastly, You say I don't understand evolution, I say, I understand evolution better than you because Quran gives me better answers.

You're telling me to keep my religion and Quran aside. I'm very sorry, but that is too much of partiality. You keep all your options open, you have all the references in the world available on the internet and in the books, you have so many of your supporters where else I just have few pages of text for the reference and you're telling me to keep that aside. Common mann!! I'm not going to do that.

---"I think you see evolution as some anti-religious thoughts"---
Now here, you are repeating again, how many times should I say that neither me not my religion disapprove evolution. There is nothing illogical about evolution.

Taking the class?huh!! I don't find any need to study genetics to understand evolution. I would have ofcourse if I was aspiring something into genetics.
You are telling me I don't have answers, to the questions that I have. I say, I have all the answers. You don't have.

---Trust me, thats what I did.---
You are telling me to trust you?I will but I've one question not only to you but all other who participated in this discussion and who have not participated but have read the whole discussion and who don't believe in God or still have doubts on God.(sorry to raise because I said earlier I'll give only answers but then I felt the need to ask this)

Did you did your homework first? Did you read your scriptures? Your own proper religious scriptures before taking the stance that "there is no God". Think!! I don't need an answer because you may lie to me but you can't lie to yourself.

Tell me, when you go to market to buy a computer, you do so much of research and gather specifications of so many computers before comparing and deciding which one to buy, right? You just don't see the model and purchase it. You don't even judge the book by its cover, do you? Then how did you made such a big decision in your life without comparing two ideologies? You are so impartial to yourself if you did that.

You may say, yaaaa... I have seen some series on the television about my faith. (hahaha...) Bro!! you are in so much in delusion  Media distort it so much by adding masala trying to make it some fancy fairy tale to increase their 'TRP' ratings and attract viewers. How can you believe in those, if you ever believed.

Aqeel, instead of you telling me to take the 'Genetics' class and watch the lectures, I tell you what, go to your scriptures first(the same way you read about Darwin and watch lectures for hours, I know you do that :P), do justice to both the ideologies and then make a decision. And am sure inshaallah you'll make a better decision.

When i said 'how we got here' i meant how humans came on earth, not how life originated. bad English from my side i guess.

And this was the end... :)

Saturday, October 6, 2012

The Path Less Trodden!!!

By the steeds that run, with panting breath,
Striking sparks of fire by their hooves
And scouring to the raid at dawn
And raising the dust in the clouds the while,
Penetrating forthwith as one into the midst.
(Quran 100:1-5) 

It all started with a walk. Thirteen horses lining up; moving out from the usual arena on the path untrodden and into the wild, on a muddy trail with lush green bushes on both the sides, the fresh morning breeze fluttering the ears of my horse(Santro).

A week long wait was over and our patience had finally paid off. A chill went down our spine the moment we saw a glimpse of the Himayat Sagar lake. Trotting among the bushes and splashing on the muddy waters, we finally reached the banks of the lake. We all were eagerly waiting for the next expected instruction from Naved, "Guys, now you are on your own!!" What happened after that is better explained by the above verse from the Quran than any human can express.

It was the moment, when for the first time, I cantered up to the brim of my satisfaction. Swiftly gliding through the grasslands, I felt like a man who is just relieved from the slavery of this concrete world. I wanted to free my hands from the reins, spread them out and flap them like a bird; disappear in the infinite sky escaping all the hustle and bustle of this world. Just then, my horse suddenly stopped as per Bahadur’s instructions. 

I am glad he did because he brought me back to Earth otherwise I would have had a nice direct flight to heaven :D 

We decided to take a break and feed the horses some juicy red carrots. But our horses seemed more interested in eating the lush green grass beneath the blue sky.

I saw Dash and Timothy trotting in the shallow waters, so I tried to take Santro too but he was really scared to step in.

Soon, the sun was gleaming high in the sky. Everyone seemed to be enjoying in the glory of sunlight but it was time to return. A final canter in the warrior style; holding reins in one hand and nothing in the other.Wish I had a sword or even a whip to make the moment perfect. :D

With a heavy heart but with a hope to return soon, we left that scenic place and retreated back to the stable. 

For the first time in my life, I am in love with some animal and am glad that it is a horse.

I would like to conclude with a few lines from one of the famous poems of Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
I looked down one as far as I could
Then took the other, as just as fair,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear,

Two roads diverged in a wood,and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. 

My Hearty thanks to ‘Commander’ Naved Khan and all other venturous friends without whom this adventurous trail ride would not have been possible. :D